January 22, 2026

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Re: Well, well, well, now we know what Jihan Wu’s been up to.

Re: Well, well, well, now we know what Jihan Wu’s been up to.

Killerpotleaf
How exactly do any UASF proposals break the immutability of bitcoin? Serious question. Ledger will remain unchanged, Bitcoins will remain unchanged. What am I missing here?

(I am asking someone to tell me like I am 5 years old without posting a wall of text and non-referenced/tagged links. We can continue talking about this stuff in the echo chamber of bitcointalk but it’d be nice to have some digestible evidence for the community at large)

Immutability of the protocol of bitcoin. If we can mutate the protocol, then bitcoin is not a level playing field. It looses its value as a stable metric of value which beyond the influence of anybody.

The gaming of the mining will be met by other gaming the mining. That is just free market competition. The free market finds ways around patents.

But if we have King Blockstream acting as a government lord, then bitcoin is as worthless as any other fiat.

@gmaxwell is protecting the “improvements” he wants to make to bitcoin’s protocol. He is saying he knows what is best and will modify that level playing field. He will not be allowed to do this. He has been banished to do his scaling work on Litecoin. None of you can change this outcome. bitcoin will retain small blocks and so Litecoin will get much of the scaling. Hope Gregory takes it in stride and doesn’t get too depressed.

Immutability of the protocol, is not on the table, it never was.
The whale with a million coins willing to dump on a chain that favors improvement over stagnation, is free to make shit tons of fiat while selling us massive hoards of cheap coins.
bitcoin is beyond the influence of any one person, but not beyond the influence of a >51% group.
bitcoin is not what it was in 2009 bitcoin will continue to improve for better or for worst.
just because you dislike the democratic aspect of bitcoin doesn’t mean its invalid.
and just because bitcoin is governed by its user base in a sorta democratic way, doesn’t make it comparable to fiat.
the FED is a private organization, bitcoin is whatever most poeple agree bitcoin is.

you can argue this cheapness bitcoin’s fundamental value, all day long, that will not stop core from forking bitcoin, and the whale dumping million of coins will not necessarily make everyone dismiss this fork.

bitcoin as you see it may or may not survive this.

after reviewing the available info, i am on the fence… ASCIBoosting fucks with miner incentives and if the majority want to fork away this flaw they perceive, i might side with them, i am on the fence…

Re: well, well, well, now we know what jihan wu’s been up to.
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iamnotback

bitcoin is beyond the influence of any one person, but not beyond the influence of a >51% group.

Just remember you and I are not in that 51%, because PoW isn’t one vote for each human.

None of us in this thread have any influence whatsoever on what will happen to the bitcoin protocol.

The whales will decide. And the game theory is that they each can’t defect from the protocol (because they would be fighting each other and cause mutual self-destruction), so they will destroy any fork that threatens the immutability of the free market enabled by the protocol.

The point of my prior msg was that we all don’t like Satoshi’s PoW, because you all prefer a democracy. You already have a democracy, it is called fiat. I think you guys are highly confused.

I don’t like PoW because it will end up winner-take-all in the long-term. But I am okay with the immutability game theory of PoW that holds in the interim.

Let’s step back for a moment and ask why are we all fighting each other? Why are we not contented with leaving bitcoin the way it is and allowing the scaling to happen on an altcoin? Why don’t we understand the value of immutability? Why do we want to make blockchains into governments and repeat the mistake of fiat again? We humans have learned nothing from our mistakes.

At the most generative essence level, we are fighting because fungible money forces us to. It is a fundamental flaw in the nature of money. And I am proposing a solution to that.

Re: well, well, well, now we know what jihan wu’s been up to.

Killerpotleaf

bitcoin is beyond the influence of any one person, but not beyond the influence of a >51% group.

Just remember you and I are not in that 51%.

None of us in this thread have any influence whatsoever on what will happen to the bitcoin protocol.

The whales will decide.

The point of my prior msg was that you don’t like Satoshi’s PoW, because you prefer a democracy. You already have a democracy, it is called fiat. I think you guys are highly confused.

I am in that 51% we all are, the 51% i speak of is unmeasurable, it not 51% of hashing power, its not 51% of coins, its somthing intangible but i can FEEL i am a part of it, and i believe we have the final say, if our opinion is solicited via a forking.  

while we have very little power over what options are given to us
once a fork happens.
we are free to choose, and we are by no means forced to side with the chain that ( currently ) is getting dumped on by some whales.

I dont think i can choose to side with a whale and his un-upgradable hardware.

Re: well, well, well, now we know what jihan wu’s been up to.
Finksy

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Re: well, well, well, now we know what jihan wu’s been up to.

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Efficiency advantages should not be the grounds on which to condemn Bitmain, nor should ethics or morality, these were not a part of the founding principles of bitcoin.  It is written in the rules that PoW mining is a free market as has been said, and is subject to the rules of a free market. It’s also disingenuous to claim that shortcuts in the PoW process are an exploit, if they still accomplish the same goal with the same level of security. At most they could be considered an oversight in the design of Merkle–Damgård construction, but in that case they are evenly open to said optimization (patents do not apply to this argument).  The empty block argument is also null, it does not effectively hurt the bitcoin ecosystem, it is simply a byproduct of a process improvement.  That said, I fully side with Nick Szabo in what he said:

“Secret mining advantage is expected. The problem is incentive to oppose incompatible upgrades for secret reasons.”

That is it.  No condemnation of shady Chinese backdoor deals about hardware improvements, or how they potentially de-frauded their customers by selling them hardware that was neutered in order to hinder competition and hide their own advantages.  None of that has any bearing on this conversation (though ti deserves its own).  Just remove the roadblocks that hinder future improvement protocols (covert boost), and demand transparency in issues that revolve around bitcoin governance and the future of the protocol instead of hiding behind secret agendas.  

If Bitmain is already taking advantage of ASICboost covertly for their own mining, and they own the patent in their own jurisdiction (again, set morality/ethics of potential infringement aside), then what would prevent them from continuing to use ASICboost technology overtly and reap the same advantage/benefit they are already? If it’s to protect the public opinion of their company, they need to take their head out of the sand. Everyone knows what they are about.

Re: well, well, well, now we know what jihan wu’s been up to.

iamnotback
That said, I fully side with Nick Szabo in what he said:

“Secret mining advantage is expected. The problem is incentive to oppose incompatible upgrades for secret reasons.”

Just remove the roadblocks that hinder future improvement protocols (covert boost), and demand transparency in issues that revolve around bitcoin governance and the future of the protocol instead of hiding behind secret agendas.  

Bitmain is protecting the immutability of the protocol, which is one of the founding principles of bitcoin. You perhaps don’t realize that bitcoin was modeled on Nash’s ideal money concept, which means its protocol must never change.

Any one who tries to change the protocol of bitcoin is the attacker. And they will be bankrupted.

You all have no vote. You think you do. But you don’t. The whales will absolutely destroy any fork that significantly changes the protocol.

I am going to laughing when all you fools finally realize that the bitcoin protocol will never change. Never.

You guys are so in love with democracy. It is pitiful. Just go use fiat then, if you want democracy.

The immutability is the only thing that makes bitcoin different than fiat.

Bitmain is a hero. And should be exalted and praised for all the sneaky and clever things they have done in order to prevent you fools from being able to mutate the protocol.

If Bitmain is already taking advantage of ASICboost covertly for their own mining, and they own the patent in their own jurisdiction (again, set morality/ethics of potential infringement aside), then what would prevent them from continuing to use ASICboost technology overtly and reap the same advantage/benefit they are already? If it’s to protect the public opinion of their company, they need to take their head out of the sand. Everyone knows what they are about.

Because they will perhaps instead release the covert upgrade (perhaps release it anonymously) to all their hardware out in the wild and since those people can’t use the overt version without breaking patent laws in their non-Chinese jurisdictions, then all those miners will be forced to use the covert version and defeat the overt BIP.

Bitmain has checkmated you fools who want to mutate the protocol. They put half the fools on BU which they never intended to actually HF with, and the other half of your fools with Blockstream who they have now checkmated.

Jilian is laughing his head off at you stupid cows, as you pitch fork each other to death and not even have a fucking clue why you are fighting each other. Nothing you were ever fighting for was correct or made any sense whatsoever.

Why do you think he putting short videos of pandas rolling and laughing on his Twitter. It is he way of telling you how much he is laughing at fools who don’t matter.

Re: well, well, well, now we know what jihan wu’s been up to.

ebliever

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Bitmain is a hero. And should be exalted and praised for all the sneaky and clever things they have done in order to prevent you fools from being able to mutate the protocol.

Wow. Just wow.

Someone needs to produce a “Hitler discovers BU has been unmasked” video…

Re: well, well, well, now we know what jihan wu’s been up to.

Luke 12:15-21

Ephesians 2:8-9

(Why?)

Published at Thu, 06 Apr 2017 14:06:25 +0000

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