Re: Fuck: SegWit, LN, Blockstream, Core, Adam Back, and GMazwell
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Legendary Offline
Activity: 1008
ZEIT Knight
Ok thanks for the clarification. But that does not make any sense. Why then are the miners trying to support bitcoin Unlimited if that will hurt their “healthy fee market”? What do you believe is in it for them if we hard fork to BU?
Because there’s no need for a fee market right now…maybe in a few decades, because right now miners get the block reward (12.5 BTC). And its not even clear if fees would be bigger with small blocks anyway, because small blocks limit growth and limit the number of users paying fees. So it makes the most sense not to worry about fees right now, and instead just focus on letting the network grow.
Hmm,
Currently Miners receive ~$1000 in transaction fees alone per block. So that is almost like they are receiving an extra BTC per block, with no extra effort required on their part.
Sorry , but thinking someone is going to ignore an extra $1000 up to 144 times in 1 day, works out to $144,000 every single day.
Do you guys think the miners are just stupid or what?
FYI: Monthly that is $4,320,000 (>$4 million Dollars) you want them to piss away. (Also Transaction fees are going nowhere but UP.)
FYI2: Increasing the Blocksize (BTU) means they can increase the # of Onchain Transactions and make more per block. (Due to the extra capacity, Users will see a decrease in Fee Prices, because the miners can easily make more with lower more stable pricing and greater volume.)
SegWit & LN are all about removing Transactions Offchain, meaning the miner will see reduced income from transaction fees, until the point LN/Banking Cartels Bankrupt the BTC miners and take over completely.
While some of you waste your time trying to figure out what all the irrelevant noise of signaling on bitcoin doesn’t mean, the reality is something that will require re-orienting your thinking.
bitcoin will never scale without Litecoin. No significant protocol changes will ever be made to bitcoin. Bitcoiners need to get this nailed into their thick skulls. Read the following:
bitcoin will achieve maximum value by enabling SegWit on Litecoin. There is no other option going forward. The above linked post explains why in detail.
bitcoin was designed by Satoshi such that the vested interests would be that no one can change the protocol. No change is ever coming to bitcoin. The sooner you realize this, the sooner we can get unstuck from the mud. Those of you who continue to facilitate this illusion of change coming to bitcoin’s protocol are obstacles in the way of progress.
Altcoins are good competitors to bitcoin and I think it just needs it.
Incorrect. Most of the speculation value from altcoins ends up in BTC, not in the altcoins. Altcoins are complementary to BTC. The reason BTC percentage of market cap is diving lately is because Bitcoiners are trying to force protocol changes to bitcoin, instead of doing it on Litecoin, and so no progress is being made at all. Stuck in the mud.
Bitcoiners need to re-orient their thinking. Read my prior post and click the link and read more.
Legendary Online
Activity: 1638
Ok thanks for the clarification. But that does not make any sense. Why then are the miners trying to support bitcoin Unlimited if that will hurt their “healthy fee market”? What do you believe is in it for them if we hard fork to BU?
Because there’s no need for a fee market right now…maybe in a few decades, because right now miners get the block reward (12.5 BTC). And its not even clear if fees would be bigger with small blocks anyway, because small blocks limit growth and limit the number of users paying fees. So it makes the most sense not to worry about fees right now, and instead just focus on letting the network grow.
Hmm,
Currently Miners receive ~$1000 in transaction fees alone per block. So that is almost like they are receiving an extra BTC per block, with no extra effort required on their part.
its more of a mindset of ‘if you do cretain things you can have a 8% bonus’
yes they will try to get the bonus. but its not treated as basic income. the flip between the reward:fee becoming bonus:income, wont happen for decades
I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER. Don’t take any information given on this forum on face value. Please do your own due diligence & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. If you wish to seek legal FACTUAL advice, then seek the guidance of a LEGAL specialist.
the effective block size, part of segwit, was a compromise meant to appease the big blockers. ironically enough this is the part that most big blockers have the most issues with.
Some people feel that discounting the signatures on SW transactions was to make using LN more economical as the on-chain portion of LN transactions (eg creating and settling LN channels) will be very signature heavy.
2in 2 out… not that heavy
With LN, in order to open a channel, a minimum of two inputs will need to be signed, however LN gives incentives to open many channels, which means that when channels are closed, users will have many outputs they will need to spend, so a more likely minimum after LN has been in use for a while is 4 signed inputs. In order to close a LN channel, users will need to sign a 2-of-2 multisig address to move the BTC to an intermediary address, which is also 2-of-2 multisig, and would need to sign subsequent transaction to move BTC to an address they control. This is 2 signatures minimum to open (which will likely grow to 4), and 4 signatures to close a LN channel.
the effective block size, part of segwit, was a compromise meant to appease the big blockers. ironically enough this is the part that most big blockers have the most issues with.
Some people feel that discounting the signatures on SW transactions was to make using LN more economical as the on-chain portion of LN transactions (eg creating and settling LN channels) will be very signature heavy.
ya i think so too, the official reasoning core gives seems fishy…
I feel it is their way of picking winners and losers, by calling a HardFork a Soft Fork, and changing the consensus rules.
Legendary Online
Activity: 1638
2in 2 out… not that heavy
With LN, in order to open a channel, a minimum of two inputs will need to be signed, however LN gives incentives to open many channels,
channel is 2in 2 out.. many channels = many 2in 2 out transactions.
many channels does not mean 2channels = 1x with 4 in 4 out 4channels = 1x with 8 in 8 out
it means 2channels = 2x 2in 2 out 4channels = 4x 2in 2 out
I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER. Don’t take any information given on this forum on face value. Please do your own due diligence & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. If you wish to seek legal FACTUAL advice, then seek the guidance of a LEGAL specialist.
While some of you waste your time trying to figure out what all the irrelevant noise of signaling on bitcoin doesn’t mean, the reality is something that will require re-orienting your thinking.
bitcoin will never scale without Litecoin. No significant protocol changes will ever be made to bitcoin. Bitcoiners need to get this nailed into their thick skulls. Read the following:
bitcoin will achieve maximum value by enabling SegWit on Litecoin. There is no other option going forward. The above linked post explains why in detail.
bitcoin was designed by Satoshi such that the vested interests would be that no one can change the protocol. No change is ever coming to bitcoin. The sooner you realize this, the sooner we can get unstuck from the mud. Those of you who continue to facilitate this illusion of change coming to bitcoin’s protocol are obstacles in the way of progress.
Altcoins are good competitors to bitcoin and I think it just needs it.
Incorrect. Most of the speculation value from altcoins ends up in BTC, not in the altcoins. Altcoins are complementary to BTC. The reason BTC percentage of market cap is diving lately is because Bitcoiners are trying to force protocol changes to bitcoin, instead of doing it on Litecoin, and so no progress is being made at all. Stuck in the mud.
Bitcoiners need to re-orient their thinking. Read my prior post and click the link and read more.
That is another whole argument and something that is highly disputable. With the present state of the bitcoin network it would not be possible to convert and transfer to Litecoin seamlessly and through trustless means. They say that the Lightning Network is one way to enable atomic transfers from blockchain to blockchain, so maybe we should have that first. Transfers should be done efficiently and securely to make it a practical option.
The economic majority wins. Those who are buying LTC now are doing so because they want SegWit to be activated. Julian Wu of Bitmain who is blocking SegWit on both LTC and BTC, created the new more efficient Scrypt miners, so I didn’t realize this before. They could monopolize these in theory. So this fight might not be as easy as I thought. But the economic majority should win, unless it lacks resolve and/or patience. Already people are arbitraging and finding ways to rent hashrate in order to earn money and support SegWit. If you think the price is going up, you try to lock in a rental price that doesn’t increase as the price rises, so you can profit. Others may be buying A4s if they want to maximize profits and believe the price will remain high (and going higher).
Julian Wu needs to get his ass kicked economically so both bitcoin and Litecoin can move forward.
It is most likely that BU is a diversionary lie. These miners simply want to gouge high fees on bitcoin and block any alternatives. They were never going to fork with BU. It was a lie to prevent everyone from joining together to kick Julian’s ass.
If my health will improve or stabilize, my plan is to launch a bitcoin Killer which doesn’t require PoW (the design is already completed). I want to bankrupt all these miners. Their vested interests are a pain in the ass. We need to kick all their arses out into the street and turn their ASICs into door stops. I am talking long-term plan.
Those who are buying ASICs now, my plans are a year or more away from reaching any relevancy or size, so fear not. Buy A4s and profit.
Both you guys are obstructionist wolves in sheepskin. You pretend you want to make progress but you are intentionally stalling. Any one with a brain stem can see right through your deceit.
ProHashing is not signaling SegWit thus they are an obstructionist. Their words are meaningless. In a meritocracy only actions count.
“Talk is cheap, show me the code“, wrote Linus Torvalds
Also it is quite clear that BU never intended to fork bitcoin with that Buggy Unlimited piece-of-shit, because they know damn well the economics of bitcoin are that the whales can and will destroy any miners who attempt to fork bitcoin. I explained this in great detail on BCT.
BU is a lie and diversionary tactic in order to fool everyone. The real goal of Julian Wu is to gouge maximize transaction fees from bitcoin and block any alternatives for scaling. These obstructionists are block progress on both bitcoin and Litecoin, because bitcoin depends on Litecoin to add off chain scaling, because the whales of bitcoin will never allow SegWit on Bitcon. Period. ProHashing by their actions is complicit. Words are meaningless.
Look at your conflicting statements:
He states that we oppose Segregated Witness, which is true. We do not think that SegWit is the best course for bitcoin or litecoin.
We do intend to implement SegWit
A majority of customers have requested SegWit, so we plan to implement it.
Stalling. Deceit. An obstructionist wolf in sheepskin.
the IRS doesn’t move its deadline back because of SegWit, and we won’t have any business at all if they come after us
Miners should leave such an incompetent company.
Whining in a forum about not being able to do your accounting at the same time you do your technical work.
Of course it is quite clear you are just lying and deceitful.
Published at Mon, 03 Apr 2017 22:06:23 +0000
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